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Post by GGFan on Jan 16, 2007 23:31:17 GMT -5
"Dragonite can't Wrap Chansey twice and expect to go for an HB after. Chansey is only staying in to Thunder Wave. Also, OHKOs are harder to counter. Ask Dugtrio. Zapdos walls him, but does nothing to the Golem / Rhydon on the switchin. Same for Articuno save you use Chansey for that."
It sure can, depending on the situation, and I was also saying it to describe that Chansey is one of it's easier targets. I can Wrap again if I anticipate a switch, or just switch out entirely since Wrap gives you a free switch, why not. OHKOs are not harder to counter, they have far less accuracy than Wrap and dont work at all if the opponent gets paralyzed. And Zapdos does not Wall Wrapnite, it gets wrapped and Hyper Beamed to death like the others, Zapdos only has a chance if it isn't paralyzed against Wrapnite going on.
"You aren't going to have the chance to hit things that are slower than Dragonite for long. Also, Starmie can OHKO Dragonite without STAB, so he isn't as strong as is made out to be. Besides, who cares how fast you are when you are paralyzed? You are sometimes facing 3 Pokemon. You are bound to be fpd sometime. Dragonite only needs to get fpd 1 time against Starmie... That doesn't take long at all. Gengar also LOLs at Dragonite. Chansey can take some wraps and hit hard. Tauros hits hard, and Snorlax hits hard... Shouldn't be too hard to kill paralyzed Dragonite."
I dont see why it wouldn't have the chance to hit Snorlax, Chansey and Exeggutor, three Pokemon that are practically guaranteed to be seen, especially Chansey who Wrapnite mauls. Either you stay in and wait for a miss or a miss doesn't happen and your Pokemon is now in KO range. Starmie only OHKOs Wrapnite with a CH, when you factor in those kinds of intangibles, I can say the same, such as Blizzard missing, Wrap hitting every turn and needs to and Wrapnite finishing Starmie off with Hyper Beam. Why wouldn't anybody care about outspeed things if they're paralysis? The reason you inflict paralysis is to outspeed the target, if this weren't the case nobody would care about using T-Wave and it would be more of a desperation attack instead, praying the opponent gets the 25% chance of immobility.
"And fine, Chansey switches, what are you going to switch to? Dragonite Wraps the incoming Pokemon and you get a free switch, and you might not be able to switch out depending on certain scenarios. You can only switch into something that outspeeds Dragonite, and only Gengar is a real counter (Though you still get a free switch anyway). If you switch into something slower, you're just depending on a Wrap miss which comes down to luck and Wrap doesn't exactly have the worst accuracy in the world. I dont care if they switch, it's still an advantage for me unless Wrap misses and you should never use Agility against Chansey unless you have to."
"Tell Starmie that Gengar is the only counter for Dragonite. If Dragonite wants to switch, predict it. That isn't hard when Wrap could have missed and when you can switch also. I am not depending on a Wrap miss with something slower, I can always switch and wait. Seriously, Wrap isn't going to do much to the common switch in. Wrap has 85 accuracy, so it will eventually miss if you don't get bored and let yourself die or something..."
And it looks like Gengar is trying to tell you that in the beginning of this thread I already said Gengar counters Wrapnite. It's obvious the switch is coming, so not only do I get a free switch if Gengar chooses to stay in, but I can choose exactly what to switch in, so you have to predict what I'm going to bring in or else it's just a further advantage for me. And I've seen Wrap and even Clamp hit for many turns consecutively, it can miss, but there's also a chance it wont. And go ahead and switch, go PP stall Wrap. Nobody is telling Wrapnite to stay in, but free damage is always nice and Wraps damage adds up when it's going to be hitting many times since your attempting to PP stall for a miss which doesn't work unless somebody is attempting to use Wrapnite early in the game.
"Just run Blizzard Starmie if you want to beat Dragoinite. Also, just don't let Starmie get paralyzed. That is easy to do. Just switch to Chansey to sop up the paralysis. Also, why would I Selfdestruct with Snorlax right away? I can stop the setup, and have done it before. It isn't as hard as you believe it to be. What do you mean by factoring RBY itself? Tauros is used on almost every team anyway, so what would hurt the game if Dragonite saw some (less for sure) play? You can't stop Tauros from beating the team when a good player sets him up right. Nor can you stop a newb from CHing your Alakazam that has Reflect up. OHKOs are ONLY countered by luck and by switching to a flier, and to be honest, the only good ones are a gamble to use because of Golem and Chansey seeing so much use. This is with Duggy... With Par support, lots of luck, and Tauros... There really isn't anything you can do about it. I am not trying to unban Wrap, by the way. I won't go for a lost cause because obviously people here hate Wrap because they can't beat it. That and arguing with people online goes nowhere... No one's mind is ever really changed. "
Fine, switch to Chansey, easy Wrapnite target. And running Blizzard on Starmie also means you wont be hitting Tauros as hard, especially Snorlax and your chances of getting a kill on Alakazam are down significantly now. So while that sounds all nice, it can support the opposing team just as much. And why wouldn't you Selfdestruct if you had to? So you would have Snorlax use Body Slam or Hyper Beam if it's at 30% against an Agility'd Wrapnite?
I never said countering Wrapnite was hard, I said you can't always stop it and it's pretty much the same as OHKOs, only OHKOs are actually easier to counter. There's little skill in using it and it's just a cheap way to score a kill or two or three or four. And why can't you grasp when I said factor in RBY itself? It's rather simple, when you factor in RBY, you factor RBYs unpredictibility factor basically. And who said it would hurt the game by having Dragonite used? o.O
How are OHKOs only countered by luck? Just paralyze them, OHKOs have god awful accuracy anyway and Pokemon like Dugtrio get crushed if they miss. I dont see what the difference is, you would use an OHKO if you were desperate to get a kill, as you would with Wrap. And your immature and poor view that people here dont like Wrap because they can't beat it doesn't really help you if you're saying you can beat Wrap but can't come up with a way to counter OHKOs, I've beaten a very good portion of Wrap users before and I decided to ban it because it's generally a cheap move that leaves you defenseless, all you can do is wait for a miss, it's not like Wrap has shitty accuracy.
And the people voiced their opinion in the thread I made, if they dont like Wrap, it's not because they can't beat it, it's because they see Wrap for what it really is, and you can't argue with that, although I know how hard you'll try having the Smogon mindset on certain things here, which you also need to stop BTW.
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Post by samthedigital on Jan 17, 2007 19:02:56 GMT -5
"It sure can, depending on the situation, and I was also saying it to describe that Chansey is one of it's easier targets. I can Wrap again if I anticipate a switch, or just switch out entirely since Wrap gives you a free switch, why not. OHKOs are not harder to counter, they "have far less accuracy than Wrap and dont work at all if the opponent gets paralyzed. And Zapdos does not Wall Wrapnite, itgets wrapped and Hyper Beamed to death like the others, Zapdos only has a chance if it isn't paralyzed against Wrapnite going on."
Depending on what situation? It can't target Chansey very well. Unless you were going to lose anyway you always have something faster to switch in. Wrapnite hasn't done very much... Wow, getting hit by Wrap once. If you have every fast thing paralyzed... Tauros would sweep just as well as Dragonite would. You have to Wrap if you anticipate the switch. Besides, people obviously can have disadvantages while using prediction. I was not talking about Zapdos walling Wrap Dragonite... I was talking about its walling Dugtrio, the fastest Fissure user. OHKOs are banned because they aren't that counterable... Sure, you can paralyze them, but if you have any common knowledge you aren't going to let your OHKOer get paralyzed. It is the same for Wrap really, but Wrap isn't an OHKO either... There is a lot of time to do something about it.
" I dont see why it wouldn't have the chance to hit Snorlax, Chansey and Exeggutor, three Pokemon that are practically guaranteed to be seen, especially Chansey who Wrapnite mauls. Either you stay in and wait for a miss or a miss doesn't happen and your Pokemon is now in KO range. Starmie only OHKOs Wrapnite with a CH, when you factor in those kinds of intangibles, I can say the same, such as Blizzard missing, Wrap hitting every turn and needs to and Wrapnite finishing Starmie off with Hyper Beam. Why wouldn't anybody care about outspeed things if they're paralysis? The reason you inflict paralysis is to outspeed the target, if this weren't the case nobody would care about using T-Wave and it would be more of a desperation attack instead, praying the opponent gets the 25% chance of immobility. "
I really don't see what you are trying to say when you say how much Wrapnite mauls Eggy / Chansey / whatever... Wrapnite can't change attacks when anticipating the switchin. Wrap isn't going to do imidiate pain to Chansey, and it will take a while before it does, and Chansey can recover it off anyway. Chansey has a ton of time to get the wrap to miss if you are patient and don't keep Chansey in to die. Starmie does not need a CH to OHKO Dragonite... Also, 25% chance of imobility doesn't take long to happen... Also, paralysis has the added bonus of getting a 25% fp. I don't care if Dragonite is faster after the Agility when paralyzed really... 25% is more than enough, and Dragonite will fall victem to some attacks eventualy. Wrap is going to average hitting 2 and a half turns instead of 3 and a half. Then he will miss the Wrap quite a bit. If Agility is the problem, why isn't that banned instead of Wrap? =/
"And it looks like Gengar is trying to tell you that in the beginning of this thread I already said Gengar counters Wrapnite. It's obvious the switch is coming, so not only do I get a free switch if Gengar chooses to stay in, but I can choose exactly what to switch in, so you have to predict what I'm going to bring in or else it's just a further advantage for me. And I've seen Wrap and even Clamp hit for many turns consecutively, it can miss, but there's also a chance it wont. And go ahead and switch, go PP stall Wrap. Nobody is telling Wrapnite to stay in, but free damage is always nice and Wraps damage adds up when it's going to be hitting many times since your attempting to PP stall for a miss which doesn't work unless somebody is attempting to use Wrapnite early in the game."
Nobody is telling anyone else to stay in either. Wrapnite doesn't work as well early game with Starmie and Gengar being quite fresh and ready to do some damage. I have seen Wrap miss many times consecutivly by the way... It is bound to miss after using it 10 times, and Wrap doesn't add up when something is recovering... I wait for a miss, but I don't keep anything in. I hope for a miss, switch in to a counter, and try again next time. Dragonite will need another opertunity to switch in. I am not PPstalling, simply waiting for a miss by being carefull. It will eventualy work despite what you say.
"Fine, switch to Chansey, easy Wrapnite target. And running Blizzard on Starmie also means you wont be hitting Tauros as hard, especially Snorlax and your chances of getting a kill on Alakazam are down significantly now. So while that sounds all nice, it can support the opposing team just as much. And why wouldn't you Selfdestruct if you had to? So you would have Snorlax use Body Slam or Hyper Beam if it's at 30% against an Agility'd Wrapnite?"
Who says I am switching in? Chansey doesn't need to. Dragonite does however need an opertunity to get into the game. You will see Dragonite come in imediatly. Wait for the wrap to hit or miss, switch to a Dragonite counter, and try next time. It will eventualy work. Hitting Tauros hard doesn't matter when you can paralyze it. Same goes for Alakazam. Blizzard does let you hit hard against Eggy also. Besides, no one said Starmie had to kill 3 Pokemon. All it really needs to to is wall Dragonite and outspeed Tauros. It also threatens Eggy. That is more than enough for me. Snorlax can BS simply because a 70% Dragonite is OHKOd by the Blizzard from Tauros and OHKOd by Chansey's IB now. It also has a chance of paralyzis. Besides, Dragonite isn't going to be agilitied against Snorlax at 100%...
"I never said countering Wrapnite was hard, I said you can't always stop it and it's pretty much the same as OHKOs, only OHKOs are actually easier to counter. There's little skill in using it and it's just a cheap way to score a kill or two or three or four. And why can't you grasp when I said factor in RBY itself? It's rather simple, when you factor in RBY, you factor RBYs unpredictibility factor basically. And who said it would hurt the game by having Dragonite used? o.O"
There are a lot of things you can't always stop in RBY. I already told you why OHKOs aren't that counterable. Getting Duggy FPd is not that easy, and he can kill anything with luck. You can't counter luck, only hope that the luck doesn't happen. Dragonite takes skill to sweep moreso than luck. You NEED par support because Dragonite needs to be able to be faster than the ever present Starmie. needs to get past Tauros and Alakazam also. Also, RBY has plenty of luck factors that aren't banned. Why should Wrapnite be banned because it can get lucky when any other thing can also get lucky?
"How are OHKOs only countered by luck? Just paralyze them, OHKOs have god awful accuracy anyway and Pokemon like Dugtrio get crushed if they miss. I dont see what the difference is, you would use an OHKO if you were desperate to get a kill, as you would with Wrap. And your immature and poor view that people here dont like Wrap because they can't beat it doesn't really help you if you're saying you can beat Wrap but can't come up with a way to counter OHKOs, I've beaten a very good portion of Wrap users before and I decided to ban it because it's generally a cheap move that leaves you defenseless, all you can do is wait for a miss, it's not like Wrap has shitty accuracy."
Dugtrio gets crushed if he misses, but what if he hits? Wrap is a long term way to kill and OHKOs take one turn. Wrap has 85 accuracy, still enough for it to miss enough times before you die. It really is just a waiting game. Wrap is banned because it leaves one defenceless? Sure, if you let him Agility, but the average player should not let Dragonite Agility for a long time, if at all.
"And the people voiced their opinion in the thread I made, if they dont like Wrap, it's not because they can't beat it, it's because they see Wrap for what it really is, and you can't argue with that, although I know how hard you'll try having the Smogon mindset on certain things here, which you also need to stop BTW."
Anyone can voice their opinion, but opinion isn't always right. More people don't care much about wrap than those who don't like it. People here don't like it because they probably played against it and couldn't beat it, simple. Also, why should I stop sharing my beliefs? Why do I need to stop my beliefs about Wrap? Besides, it isn't only Smogon that does not ban Wrap. I don't see how you say I have a Smogon mindset. I agree with Smogon's ruling, yes, but I don't want Wrap unbanned just because they have it unbanned... That would be kinda stupid.
"which you also need to stop BTW."
Stop having the Smogon mindset? You mean that I share the same opinion as Smogon? There is nothing wrong with that.
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Post by GGFan on Jan 20, 2007 8:56:53 GMT -5
"Depending on what situation? It can't target Chansey very well. Unless you were going to lose anyway you always have something faster to switch in. Wrapnite hasn't done very much... Wow, getting hit by Wrap once. If you have every fast thing paralyzed... Tauros would sweep just as well as Dragonite would. You have to Wrap if you anticipate the switch. Besides, people obviously can have disadvantages while using prediction. I was not talking about Zapdos walling Wrap Dragonite... I was talking about its walling Dugtrio, the fastest Fissure user. OHKOs are banned because they aren't that counterable... Sure, you can paralyze them, but if you have any common knowledge you aren't going to let your OHKOer get paralyzed. It is the same for Wrap really, but Wrap isn't an OHKO either... There is a lot of time to do something about it."
How does it not target Chansey well? It can kill it after 2-4 Wraps. And what do you mean what situation? It's quite easy to know I'm referring to situations when Dragonite comes out against a weakened team, it can sweep it and the opponent will be defenseless. And Tauros would blunder since at least you aren't completely defenseless when Tauros comes out. And OHKOs are just as counterable as Wrap, even more, Dugtrio is the only exception since it can't get paralyzed as easily as the other Pokemon can, but OHKOs have horrible accuracy, so if Wrap can miss, so can OHKOs, in fact with Wrap it's a matter of "how many times will i hit" with OHKOs it's a matter of "i hope i hit once".
And if you had any common knowledge you would use your OHKOer when you had to, so if you miss and got paralyzed as an exchange, oh well, OHKOs have the worst accuracy in the game anyway, you act like their sweeping machines. Oh, and Horn Drill Seaking can just use Agility to negate the speed loss BTW, as can Horn Drill Dragonite. Wrap isn't an OHKO, but it leaves you completely defenseless when used at the right time. 85% accuracy isn't bad either, 30% is. And how would you know I would have a wrapper as soon as the battle started?
"I really don't see what you are trying to say when you say how much Wrapnite mauls Eggy / Chansey / whatever... Wrapnite can't change attacks when anticipating the switchin. Wrap isn't going to do imidiate pain to Chansey, and it will take a while before it does, and Chansey can recover it off anyway. Chansey has a ton of time to get the wrap to miss if you are patient and don't keep Chansey in to die. Starmie does not need a CH to OHKO Dragonite... Also, 25% chance of imobility doesn't take long to happen... Also, paralysis has the added bonus of getting a 25% fp. I don't care if Dragonite is faster after the Agility when paralyzed really... 25% is more than enough, and Dragonite will fall victem to some attacks eventualy. Wrap is going to average hitting 2 and a half turns instead of 3 and a half. Then he will miss the Wrap quite a bit. If Agility is the problem, why isn't that banned instead of Wrap? =/"
k, I'll say it again. It can kill Chansey after 2-4 Wraps, I dunno why you keep acting like it doesn't fare well against Chansey when it's Wrapnites easiest target, or whatever it is you're trying to say. When I'm in KO range I stop using Wrap and go for Hyper Beam, and since you said I can't change attacks, you wont know when I'll use Hyper Beam. Or I just can use Wrap as Dragonite CAN kill Chansey with Wrap alone if I hit enough. How does Starmie not need a CH to OHKO a full health Dragonite? Zomg 4x water weakness?! I dont care if you factor in fps, an fp only matters if Dragonite gets fpd the turn it uses Wrap, if it gets fpd during it, nothing happens. And how does a 25% turn of immobility not take long to happen? I've had instances where's it taken over 10 turns for one to happen to one Pokemon. And Wrap can miss, but so can Blizzard.
"Nobody is telling anyone else to stay in either. Wrapnite doesn't work as well early game with Starmie and Gengar being quite fresh and ready to do some damage. I have seen Wrap miss many times consecutivly by the way... It is bound to miss after using it 10 times, and Wrap doesn't add up when something is recovering... I wait for a miss, but I don't keep anything in. I hope for a miss, switch in to a counter, and try again next time. Dragonite will need another opertunity to switch in. I am not PPstalling, simply waiting for a miss by being carefull. It will eventualy work despite what you say."
Wrap wont always need to hit 10 times before it can kill things, depending on when it comes in and also depending how many times Wrap hits per usage and then you factor in CHs. Since we're factoring in missing after 10 uses, I can just as easily say it'll get a CH after 10 hits or so, and they will add up. And I like how you act you'll magically have all 6 Pokemon alive and at perfect status when Wrapnite comes out. I've seen Wrap miss consecutive turns, but very rarely. Then again, I've missed Blizzard three turns in a row before and missed with Body Slam in two consecutive games. And Starmie can only recover if Wrap miss, once it's HP reaches a certain number I can just kill it with Hyper Beam. And waiting for a miss doesn't always work, despite what you think.
"Who says I am switching in? Chansey doesn't need to. Dragonite does however need an opertunity to get into the game. You will see Dragonite come in imediatly. Wait for the wrap to hit or miss, switch to a Dragonite counter, and try next time. It will eventualy work. Hitting Tauros hard doesn't matter when you can paralyze it. Same goes for Alakazam. Blizzard does let you hit hard against Eggy also. Besides, no one said Starmie had to kill 3 Pokemon. All it really needs to to is wall Dragonite and outspeed Tauros. It also threatens Eggy. That is more than enough for me. Snorlax can BS simply because a 70% Dragonite is OHKOd by the Blizzard from Tauros and OHKOd by Chansey's IB now. It also has a chance of paralyzis. Besides, Dragonite isn't going to be agilitied against Snorlax at 100%..."
You did before....which is why I said "Fine, switch to Chansey, easy Wrapnite". And you've basically been saying the same things over and over, "oh Wrap will miss eventually". That's why people don't like it, because it comes down to missing. Dragonite can get several opportunities to come in, depending on when it comes out and what the situation is. I wont even have to switch it in sometimes, I can just switch it in after something dies and then Agility up if the opponent is something is like Snorlax. Then it comes to Wrap missing, just like OHKOs do, except Wrap has 55% more accuracy, goody. And I would use Wrap on a 100% Snorlax, but who says Snorlax is going to be at 100%? I wont even need to use Wrap to kill it sometimes, I can just use Hyper Beam or Agility up and embrace the Selfdestruct, which Dragonite survives and then it comes down to Wrap missing.
I dont think I ever said Starmie had to kill 3 Pokemon. And hitting Tauros hard can sure as hell make a difference, Blizzard slows down the process and gives Tauros more chances to land a paraslam and then it has a chance to kill Starmie since it's using Blizzard which is a 4HKO on Tauros, can get fpd and Blizzard can miss too. Blizzard doesn't OHKO Golem who can use Explosion on it and Rhydon can land a paraslam, then EQ it and at least leave it at like 20% and paralyzed, unless Blizzard misses or Starmie gets fpd the next turn. People use Blizzard on it solely for Exeggutor.
"There are a lot of things you can't always stop in RBY. I already told you why OHKOs aren't that counterable. Getting Duggy FPd is not that easy, and he can kill anything with luck. You can't counter luck, only hope that the luck doesn't happen. Dragonite takes skill to sweep moreso than luck. You NEED par support because Dragonite needs to be able to be faster than the ever present Starmie. needs to get past Tauros and Alakazam also. Also, RBY has plenty of luck factors that aren't banned. Why should Wrapnite be banned because it can get lucky when any other thing can also get lucky?"
At least with the other things, I AM NOT COMPLETELY DEFENSELESS AND HAVE TO WAIT/PRAY/BEG ON MY KNEES FOR A MISS. Also, Wrapnite doesn't always need par support, it helps because then the opponent can fpd the turn Wrap would miss, thus killing their opening but depending when it comes out, it can take an attack and use Agility and then the game comes down to Wrapnite missing. Your main argument has basically been "Wrap will miss". So will OHKOs, in fact it's more like "OHKOs should miss". More power to them if they have the balls to gamble and get an ace. And Dragonite doesn't need to be faster if Starmie is paralyzed, against Tauros it only gets stopped if Blizzard CHs, otherwise it can use Agility and it comes down to Wrap missing.
Alakazam is basically Chansey that outspeeds it minus Ice Beam when it comes to facing Wrapnite. And again, if Wrapnite uses Agility the turn Alakazam uses Thunder Wave it has to get fpd the turn it would Wrap, and that's good enough for me. It basically comes down to Wrap missing as usual. And if Alakazam is paralyzed the turn Wrapnite comes in, no fps.
"Dugtrio gets crushed if he misses, but what if he hits? Wrap is a long term way to kill and OHKOs take one turn. Wrap has 85 accuracy, still enough for it to miss enough times before you die. It really is just a waiting game. Wrap is banned because it leaves one defenceless? Sure, if you let him Agility, but the average player should not let Dragonite Agility for a long time, if at all."
30% accuracy, so if Dugtrio hits, it's on the same level of Wrap hitting over and over and more power for the huge gamble paying off. Wrap is basically a slower version of an OHKO that has much more accuracy, the inital accuracy of OHKOs suck hard, but the inital accuracy of Wrap doesn't. And it's accuracy is good that it can hit over and over. And Wrapnite doesn't need to use Agility everytime to kill things, the average player would understand that when you factor in paralysis and when Wrapnite comes out, and you can't always stop Wrapnite from using Agility.
"Anyone can voice their opinion, but opinion isn't always right. More people don't care much about wrap than those who don't like it. People here don't like it because they probably played against it and couldn't beat it, simple. Also, why should I stop sharing my beliefs? Why do I need to stop my beliefs about Wrap? Besides, it isn't only Smogon that does not ban Wrap. I don't see how you say I have a Smogon mindset. I agree with Smogon's ruling, yes, but I don't want Wrap unbanned just because they have it unbanned... That would be kinda stupid."
According to the thread, they didn't seem to like it. So I'd say their opinions are just as valid as anyone who thinks it should be allowed. Also, your opinion of "people here ban wrap because they couldnt beat it" supports why OHKOs were banned if anything. You insist of believing that, but you're pretty much dead wrong about that really. Also, I say you have a Smogon mindset because I was referring to something else, and your view of "people here ban wrap because they couldnt beat it" had a hint of Smogon elitism. If you just didn't act so...Smogony sometimes I wouldn't say it. Also, I'm not unbanning Wrap anytime soon BTW.
"Stop having the Smogon mindset? You mean that I share the same opinion as Smogon? There is nothing wrong with that."
Then why do you criticize people agreeing with me? There's nothing wrong with people who agree with me, and people who share the same opinion as I. And again, I was actually referring to something else and the hint of elitism in your post.
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Post by samthedigital on Jan 20, 2007 12:21:20 GMT -5
"How does it not target Chansey well? It can kill it after 2-4 Wraps. And what do you mean what situation? It's quite easy to know I'm referring to situations when Dragonite comes out against a weakened team, it can sweep it and the opponent will be defenseless. And Tauros would blunder since at least you aren'tcompletely defenseless when Tauros comes out. And OHKOs are just as counterable as Wrap, even more, Dugtrio is the only exception since it can't get paralyzed as easily as the other Pokemon can, but OHKOs have horrible accuracy, so if Wrap can miss, so can OHKOs, in fact with Wrap it's a matter of "how many times will i hit" with OHKOs it's a matter of "i hope i hit once"."
It can't keep Chansey in. It targets things that Dragonite is afraid of, and eventually Wrap will miss and Dragonite will paralyze. It comes out on a weakened team? Tauros does the same thing... Who is Tauros afraid of? Starmie obviously, but it doesn't like Alakazam coming out either. Same thing with Dragonite. And again, OHKOs are luckbased. You can't counter Fissure when a good player is using it. Wrap is counterable and isn't completly luckbased. There are reliable counters for it. Wrap can miss while doing damage, Fissure is INSTANT death. Wrap is not. I can beat Wrap with something speedy since Agility is harder to set up than just using an OHKO. Then there is the chance of Wrap missing. If you let Dragonite set up it is your fault. You can't do anything about Dugdrio : He is instantly able to ko things.
"And if you had any common knowledge you would use your OHKOer when you had to, so if you miss and got paralyzed as an exchange, oh well, OHKOs have the worst accuracy in the game anyway, you act like their sweeping machines. Oh, and Horn Drill Seaking can just use Agility to negate the speed loss BTW, as can Horn Drill Dragonite. Wrap isn't an OHKO, but it leaves you completely defenseless when used at the right time. 85% accuracy isn't bad either, 30% is. And how would you know I would have a wrapper as soon as the battle started?"
OHKOs still have the luck factor. Really, I never said they were good, but they are banned for a reason. Seaking sucks and can't take any hits... Much less live paralyzed. Horn Drill Dragonite can't set up until much later in the game also. You act as if all you have to do is Agility. 85% accuracy on something that can't OHKO until it gets the Agility. That only happens when Tauros kills something, and it isn't guarunteed at all. I believe Tauros has a great chance to paralyze with Body Slam, and a chance to CH and kill Dragonite or Freeze it with Blizzard. You have a 70% chance to set up the Wrap on Dragonite. Then you have to go on for quite a while with a lot of 50/50 matchups against the likes of Starmie, Chansey, etc. I don't need to know that my opponent has Wrap. I keep my Starmie healthy anyway.
"k, I'll say it again. It can kill Chansey after 2-4 Wraps, I dunno why you keep acting like it doesn't fare well against Chansey when it's Wrapnites easiest target, or whatever it is you're trying to say. When I'm in KO range I stop using Wrap and go for Hyper Beam, and since you said I can't change attacks, you wont know when I'll use Hyper Beam. Or I just can use Wrap as Dragonite CAN kill Chansey with Wrap alone if I hit enough. How does Starmie not need a CH to OHKO a full health Dragonite? Zomg 4x water weakness?! I dont care if you factor in fps, an fp only matters if Dragonite gets fpd the turn it uses Wrap, if it gets fpd during it, nothing happens. And how does a 25% turn of immobility not take long to happen? I've had instances where's it taken over 10 turns for one to happen to one Pokemon. And Wrap can miss, but so can Blizzard." It can not set up on Chansey. I don't get what the big deal is if it comes in on Chansey. Nothing game breaking will happen. I can always switch out if Wrap hits, and I can recover later. You act as if the player using Chansey will let it stay in and die. As I said before, it is a waiting game... Starmie / Gengar comes in, and Dragonite goes away. Eventualy Wrap is going to end up missing if Chansey is such a target to Dragonite... Chansey can heal and mend her losses before Dragonite comes out again. Also, Dragonite has an Ice weakness, duh. Just run Blizzard, it isn't a big deal... Each does different things. You could also not run Thunder Wave if you really wanted to. If it gets FPd during it he does less wraps, that is not hard to understand. Sure, you can go for 10 turns not getting FPd, but you can go 10 turns getting FPd. That is just luck, which isn't a factor in serious discusion. Wrap and Blizzard can both miss, but Wrap will miss more times. Besides, why is it relavent? No one will keep Dragonite in against Starmie. Dragonite will not be set up until much later in the game. Why ruin the surprise early in the game? My opponent is much more likely to let Starmie die if they don't know I have Dragonite.
"You did before....which is why I said "Fine, switch to Chansey, easy Wrapnite". And you've basically been saying the same things over and over, "oh Wrap will miss eventually". That's why people don't like it, because it comes down to missing. Dragonite can get several opportunities to come in, depending on when it comes out and what the situation is. I wont even have to switch it in sometimes, I can just switch it in after something dies and then Agility up if the opponent is something is like Snorlax. Then it comes to Wrap missing, just like OHKOs do, except Wrap has 55% more accuracy, goody. And I would use Wrap on a 100% Snorlax, but who says Snorlax is going to be at 100%? I wont even need to use Wrap to kill it sometimes, I can just use Hyper Beam or Agility up and embrace the Selfdestruct, which Dragonite survives and then it comes down to Wrap missing."
You don't get it, no one with a right mind will let their opponent know that they have Dragonite. You really need to wear down Dragonite's counters before it comes in. If not your opponent will keep their Starmie / Gengar healthy. Wrap doesn't OHKO, simple as that. And if you can use Hyper Beam, so can Tauros. Besides, Snorlax usualy ends up Exploding on his opponent before Dragonite has a chance to come in anyway...
"At least with the other things, I AM NOT COMPLETELY DEFENSELESS AND HAVE TO WAIT/PRAY/BEG ON MY KNEES FOR A MISS. Also, Wrapnite doesn't always need par support, it helps because then the opponent can fpd the turn Wrap would miss, thus killing their opening but depending when it comes out, it can take an attack and use Agility and then the game comes down to Wrapnite missing. Your main argument has basically been "Wrap will miss". So will OHKOs, in fact it's more like "OHKOs should miss". More power to them if they have the balls to gamble and get an ace. And Dragonite doesn't need to be faster if Starmie is paralyzed, against Tauros it only gets stopped if Blizzard CHs, otherwise it can use Agility and it comes down to Wrap missing. "
It is only a waiting game, nothing else. You are basing things on luck, which should not be happening, by the way. Again, you can not Agility early in the game. My argument is not "wrap will miss" but that Wrap is easily countered if you play right. What was your argument so far? Dragonite getting good lck was the essence of it. Also, OHKOs are going to miss, but they can't be 'countered' in the sense of the word. Wrap can, do you even get that? My god, I have told you that so many times and you don't understand. Stop giving me early game scenarios... Dragonite is NOT coming in early game because it is a disadvantage for him to come in. If I know my opponent has Wrap, I will just keep my Dragonite counter healthy. Starmie usualy isn't paralyzed because it wants to fend off Tauros. Unless you don't want to do that?
" Alakazam is basically Chansey that outspeeds it minus Ice Beam when it comes to facing Wrapnite. And again, if Wrapnite uses Agility the turn Alakazam uses Thunder Wave it has to get fpd the turn it would Wrap, and that's good enough for me. It basically comes down to Wrap missing as usual. And if Alakazam is paralyzed the turn Wrapnite comes in, no fps. "
Dragonite has a 60% chance to hit every time when starting the wrap when he is FPd. So basicaly he will miss. Also, that is asuming Alakazam is paralyzed... Just keep Alakazam healthy.
"30% accuracy, so if Dugtrio hits, it's on the same level of Wrap hitting over and over and more power for the huge gamble paying off. Wrap is basically a slower version of an OHKO that has much more accuracy, the inital accuracy of OHKOs suck hard, but the inital accuracy of Wrap doesn't. And it's accuracy is good that it can hit over and over. And Wrapnite doesn't need to use Agility everytime to kill things, the average player would understand that when you factor in paralysis and when Wrapnite comes out, and you can't always stop Wrapnite from using Agility."
Wrap doesn't have the killing potential right off the bat. OHKOs do. I can't stop Agility later game, but I can stop it at any other time. Who cares about 'the average player'? If it is possible to counter then it doesn't matter about the common n00b who can't.
"According to the thread, they didn't seem to like it. So I'd say their opinions are just as valid as anyone who thinks it should be allowed. Also, your opinion of "people here ban wrap because they couldnt beat it" supports why OHKOs were banned if anything. You insist of believing that, but you're pretty much dead wrong about that really. Also, I say you have a Smogon mindset because I was referring to something else, and your view of "people here ban wrap because they couldnt beat it" had a hint of Smogon elitism. If you just didn't act so...Smogony sometimes I wouldn't say it. Also, I'm not unbanning Wrap anytime soon BTW."
Opinion really isn't a factor in something that has to mostly do with what is possible or what isn't. For example, if more people wanted to ban Tauros than not, no one would ban it. It depends on the game, not on opinion. I am wrong for believing that wrap should not be banned or I am wrong for thinking that opinions don't matter in this case? Both of my reasonings aren't hard for people to understand. I don't get why you compare me to Smogon... I could call you a Smogon and it would have just as much meaning. I never said I cared about you banning wrap, by the way, I just think that it is counterable. If you think it is so unbeatable, then ban it. It makes no real difference to me.
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Post by GGFan on Jan 24, 2007 8:19:16 GMT -5
Ok back.
"It can't keep Chansey in. It targets things that Dragonite is afraid of, and eventually Wrap will miss and Dragonite will paralyze. It comes out on a weakened team? Tauros does the same thing... Who is Tauros afraid of? Starmie obviously, but it doesn't like Alakazam coming out either. Same thing with Dragonite. And again, OHKOs are luckbased. You can't counter Fissure when a good player is using it. Wrap is counterable and isn't completly luckbased. There are reliable counters for it. Wrap can miss while doing damage, Fissure is INSTANT death. Wrap is not. I can beat Wrap with something speedy since Agility is harder to set up than just using an OHKO. Then there is the chance of Wrap missing. If you let Dragonite set up it is your fault. You can't do anything about Dugdrio : He is instantly able to ko things."
Chansey is forced to switch out against Wrapnite, or I just can use something I didn't emphasize enough and get the free switch, getting the free switch. Dragonite can easily do enough damage with Wrap that I can use Wrap and switch to Tauros, forcing you to switch out or die. So Wrapnite can also be used to produce game ending situations with the free switch, or at least the cheap tactic can be used to really give you an edge. And as for what Tauros should be afraid of, it comes down to luck on whether it kills Snorlax or not, other Tauros, Reflectzam means it has to CH.
If you keep saying Wrap will miss eventually, then Wrap is also luck based, except it has much higher accuracy and can give you free switches. OHKOs have god awful accuracy and most of them aren't even fast enough to spread OHKOs around, and the ones they do outspeed have to take a huge gamble on whether to go for the kill or take a huge hit if they miss (Which is very likely considering the accuracy). Dugtrio is the only exception and it has laughable defense, just use Zapdos or Dragonite if you're afraid of Fissure though, simple and use Gengar if you're afraid of Horn Drill, also simple.
"OHKOs still have the luck factor. Really, I never said they were good, but they are banned for a reason. Seaking sucks and can't take any hits... Much less live paralyzed. Horn Drill Dragonite can't set up until much later in the game also. You act as if all you have to do is Agility. 85% accuracy on something that can't OHKO until it gets the Agility. That only happens when Tauros kills something, and it isn't guarunteed at all. I believe Tauros has a great chance to paralyze with Body Slam, and a chance to CH and kill Dragonite or Freeze it with Blizzard. You have a 70% chance to set up the Wrap on Dragonite. Then you have to go on for quite a while with a lot of 50/50 matchups against the likes of Starmie, Chansey, etc. I don't need to know that my opponent has Wrap. I keep my Starmie healthy anyway."
Wrap is just as luck based, it generates kills at a slower pace but you dont have to go for the kill always, you can just use Wrap and then switch to something else that can end the game for you, it's banned here for a reason. THE Alternative used to allow OHKOs if you remember but I banned them because I banned Wrap. OHKOs are easier to counter, just use Gengar and/or Zapdos/Dragonite, easy and plus they have horrible accuracy anyway. And Horn Drill Dragonite after Agility comes down to missing unless the opponent has Gengar, you can't argue that at all. Tauros isn't going to be doing much if it gets hit by Horn Drill. As does Wrapnite, in the right situation it all comes down to missing, Tauros doesn't magically escape Wraps clutches, neither does Chansey who gets set up for Hyper Beam much quicker. And Dragonite can OHKO a few Pokemon without the Agility BTW. I dont need to know if the opponent has Starmie, I always keep my Wrapnite ready to take on most situations and make sure I paralyze it.
"k, I'll say it again. It can kill Chansey after 2-4 Wraps, I dunno why you keep acting like it doesn't fare well against Chansey when it's Wrapnites easiest target, or whatever it is you're trying to say. When I'm in KO range I stop using Wrap and go for Hyper Beam, and since you said I can't change attacks, you wont know when I'll use Hyper Beam. Or I just can use Wrap as Dragonite CAN kill Chansey with Wrap alone if I hit enough. How does Starmie not need a CH to OHKO a full health Dragonite? Zomg 4x water weakness?! I dont care if you factor in fps, an fp only matters if Dragonite gets fpd the turn it uses Wrap, if it gets fpd during it,
You still haven't said how Dragonite doesn't face Chansey well, you haven't explained that after I said how it's Wrapnites easiest target. Ok, it can switch, that doesn't explain anything. Nothing happens because Chansey has Ice Beam, Dragonite can kill it after 2 Wraps. And I dont have to try and go for the kill, I can just hit Chansey with Wrap and then switch to something else, forcing a switch. And switching in and out becomes predictable and allows Wrapnite to set up Agility, making Wrap coming down to missing.
"You did before....which is why I said "Fine, switch to Chansey, easy Wrapnite". And you've basically been saying the same things over and over, "oh Wrap will miss eventually". That's why people don't like it, because it comes down to missing. Dragonite can get several opportunities to come in, depending on when it comes out and what the situation is. I wont even have to switch it in sometimes, I can just switch it in after something dies and then Agility up if the opponent is something is like Snorlax. Then it comes to Wrap missing, just like OHKOs do, except Wrap has 55% more accuracy, goody. And I would use Wrap on a 100% Snorlax, but who says Snorlax is going to be at 100%? I wont even need to use Wrap to kill it sometimes, I can just use Hyper Beam or Agility up and embrace the Selfdestruct, which Dragonite survives and then it comes down to Wrap missing."
"You don't get it, no one with a right mind will let their opponent know that they have Dragonite. You really need to wear down Dragonite's counters before it comes in. If not your opponent will keep their Starmie / Gengar healthy. Wrap doesn't OHKO, simple as that. And if you can use Hyper Beam, so can Tauros. Besides, Snorlax usualy ends up Exploding on his opponent before Dragonite has a chance to come in anyway..."
You dont get it, people also use Wrap to manipulate the free switch, sometimes it doesn't matter if they know Dragonite is in, and you dont even know what set will be used. People pull out Cloyster and use Clamp early, then switch out because they get a free switch. And Dragonites dont need to be worn down, just paralyzed, then it comes down to Wrap missing, the same case with OHKOs. So Wrap is basically a slower version of an OHKO with an added effect, which is why I banned it. And Snorlax using Selfdestruct only helps Wrapnite anyway so ok if that happens.
"It is only a waiting game, nothing else. You are basing things on luck, which should not be happening, by the way. Again, you can not Agility early in the game. My argument is not "wrap will miss" but that Wrap is easily countered if you play right. What was your argument so far? Dragonite getting good lck was the essence of it. Also, OHKOs are going to miss, but they can't be 'countered' in the sense of the word. Wrap can, do you even get that? My god, I have told you that so many times and you don't understand. Stop giving me early game scenarios... Dragonite is NOT coming in early game because it is a disadvantage for him to come in. If I know my opponent has Wrap, I will just keep my Dragonite counter healthy. Starmie usualy isn't paralyzed because it wants to fend off Tauros. Unless you don't want to do that?"
*Waits 10 turns later, no miss*
Ok? And who says Wrapnite just wont switch out and then switch to something else for the free switch to score the kill? Only if it has Agility up, then it can go for the kill itself, even if it does, if you're afraid of missing that badly just switch out during Wraps and something else will finish the Pokemon. My arguments constructed of Wrap coming down to luck, it not always so simple to counter and the benefit of the free switch, your main argument has been "Wrap will miss, switch out". Not once have you commented on the free switch or fps only mattering if it gets fpd the turn it would Wrap. You haven't said anything noteworthy that would have me considering lifting the ban on Wrap. And there's a good chance Starmie gets paralyzed against Tauros, especially if it has Blizzard.
"Dragonite has a 60% chance to hit every time when starting the wrap when he is FPd. So basicaly he will miss. Also, that is asuming Alakazam is paralyzed... Just keep Alakazam healthy."
The fp logic only works if it gets fpd the turn it Wraps, and I feel every effect is separate, so if it doesn't get fpd, Wrap goes back to 85% chance of hitting as usual. And again, you keep saying it will miss. If we can factor in Wrap missing and fps, then I can also factor in using Wrap a minimal amount of times and using Hyper Beam for a desperation CH, but I dont need to say that so I'll just use Wrap and switch to something else.
"30% accuracy, so if Dugtrio hits, it's on the same level of Wrap hitting over and over and more power for the huge gamble paying off. Wrap is basically a slower version of an OHKO that has much more accuracy, the inital accuracy of OHKOs suck hard, but the inital accuracy of Wrap doesn't. And it's accuracy is good that it can hit over and over. And Wrapnite doesn't need to use Agility everytime to kill things, the average player would understand that when you factor in paralysis and when Wrapnite comes out, and you can't always stop Wrapnite from using Agility."
"Wrap doesn't have the killing potential right off the bat. OHKOs do. I can't stop Agility later game, but I can stop it at any other time. Who cares about 'the average player'? If it is possible to counter then it doesn't matter about the common n00b who can't."
Except that OHKOs have laughable accuracy, while Wrap doesn't, and once again, the free switch. And you can't stop Agility'd Wrap depending on what you have, and who cares about n00bs who can't stop it? I dont care what the skill level is, nobody can stop Wrap from sweeping if it's pulled at the right time and the free switch can kill things anyway. OHKOs will miss completely if you switch to something that it wont work against, on Wrap the incoming Pokemon takes the Wrap.
"Opinion really isn't a factor in something that has to mostly do with what is possible or what isn't. For example, if more people wanted to ban Tauros than not, no one would ban it. It depends on the game, not on opinion. I am wrong for believing that wrap should not be banned or I am wrong for thinking that opinions don't matter in this case? Both of my reasonings aren't hard for people to understand. I don't get why you compare me to Smogon... I could call you a Smogon and it would have just as much meaning. I never said I cared about you banning wrap, by the way, I just think that it is counterable. If you think it is so unbeatable, then ban it. It makes no real difference to me."
Then by your own logic, what you say doesn't matter at all. I'm just saying, OHKOs are just couterable, I dont see why you think they're so unbeatable. I ban Wrap because they have the same concept that OHKOs do, which is why I decided to ban it. Nobody here is wrong when they expressed their opinions, you were wrong for getting mad at them. THE Alternative has Wrap banned, and you still haven't changed my mind and why it shouldn't. I dont care what other places do, except these other places seem to have at least some people who dont like Wrap, so it's not like it's accepted by everyone. Usually when I ban Wrap in a tournament, I've gotten nothing but "good job man". Even Redwall gave me a pat on the back for it when I banned it in the GRT, most of the people in Pokemonexperte were happy when I banned it in the Pokemonexperte. So no, it's not just the people here that support the ban.
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Post by GGFan on Jan 27, 2007 12:03:09 GMT -5
k you're basically repeating the same things over and over so I'm going to respond to your numbered things.
"1- You can't kill by switching out, duh."
You can switch into a Pokemon that can you put you into a bad situation, or use the incoming Pokemon to kill that Pokemon, duh. No need to always rely on Wrap when you can just Wrap Chansey a couple of times and then switch to Tauros and hit the switch in with a paraslam. Yeah, that's really fair, being able to switch something in for free.
"2- Your argument is basically based on false facts."
False facts? So you deny the fact that Wrap and it's counterparts give you free switches? Then you obviously dont know what you're talking about and you really need to get a clue. I can post a log of this happening if you want.
"3- If you think that my argument has been that then you should learn to read."
Thanks, I can read well, I'm probably going to wind up being an English major. All you've posted was basically "Wrap will miss eventually, switch into other Pokemon". You haven't once responded to Wrap giving you free switches and seriously, you wont always be able to keep switching, so I guess next time you come up with a more convincing argument, you have your own poor arguing skills to blame, not my reading skills.
"4- If paralyzed Dragonite has only a 60% chance to hit. That is not high enough in the first place, and he has to be set up."
Only IF Dragonite gets paralyzed, and once again, fps only matter if Dragonite gets fpd the turn it uses Wrap, something else you've failed to note and now I'm wondering if you actually know anything about Wrap at all.
"1- We are not talking about OHKOs, so why do you waist your time?"
Because they're both virtually the same concepts, so if you fight for Wrap to be allowed, then I dont see why OHKOs shouldn't.
"2- Free switch against Starmie or Gengar... That gives you the option of Alakazam, Chansey, Golem, and Exeggutor."
I dont know where you came up with this, be more specific. Ok, so you'd switch Alakazam, Chansey and Golem into Tauros?
"3- It isn't hard to switch in on those Pokemon so that they do not do a lot of damage to your team."
Who said it was? What are you talking about?
"4- Free switch is not as big a deal as you make it."
LOL, so it's not a big deal to be able to freely switch in Tauros or Snorlax? That can be devastating in a game, even early on it can cause problems.
"5- It starts a new Wrap when you switch out no matter what, so it has a chance of missing in the first place. This gives the player an advantage."
I dont need to use Wrap over and over, and when you keep switching. You'll eventually switch in a cycle, and thus I'll know what you'll be switching into eventually and can just predict that instead of just using Wrap over and over, advantage me.
"6- This does not always happen, but over time it will happen at least once and you should take advantage of it."
You can't say Wrap will miss once. I've had Wrap hit me over 20 times in a row, and missing doesn't always matter, like when you switch out, then the miss doesn't matter at all.
"1- Actually read my posts please. I gave you enough reasoning."
I read your posts and your logic, it doesn't make any sense. Dragonite can kill it after 2 wraps. Saying "lol switch" doesn't make it a hard target, Chansey has to switch so it doesn't get killed. I dont know why you can't comprehend this, that's like saying Tauros doesn't fight Chansey well because Chansey can just paralyze, switch out and recover later.
"2- Why would you predict a switch when I want Wrap to hit before I switch?"
Why wouldn't I? The more you switch, the more glaringly obvious it becomes, and then I can just switch to whatever counters your switch.
"1- Dragonite faces much the same problem with Snorlax as Chansey. Read a bit and you should find that out."
What dont you get? All Snorlax can do is hope Wrap misses, I seriously dont know why you dont get that. Even if uses Selfdestruct, it wont kill Dragonite as long as it's at full health. And how you think Dragonite has the same problems with Chansey is beyond me, Dragonite will have to hit a crapload of wraps to kill a full health Snorlax,, it can kill a full health Chansey after a minimum of 2. If you read that, maybe you would have realized that.
"2- When paralyzed Dragonite has a 60% chance to hit. You can not say that it will win you the game."
Neither can you when your trying to kill Wrapnite with Blizzard, a 65% chance isn't that much better. And once again, fps only matter if Dragonite gets fpd the turn it wraps. Seriously, read this stuff. If it gets fpd during the Wrap it doesn't matter and if the target is weak enough it can just use Hyper Beam instead.
"3- So you don't want Dragonite paralyzed, but you should know that."
I dont, but I can't do anything about it if I dont have a choice.
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Post by GGFan on Jan 27, 2007 12:22:33 GMT -5
"1- OHKOs are based on luck 100%, and thus should not be in today's metagame. I never said they were unbeatable."
I dont see how Wrap is any different, you really can't be slower than the target, you have to think and use it at the right time, except Wrap has some extras like FREE SWITCHES which are really lame. If it were so acceptable, so many people wouldn't hate the move.
"2- Wrap does not OHKO, and so it does not have the same concept as OHKOs."
Wrap is basically a slower version of one, and they can have similar concepts just because they do different things, they are virtually the same except OHKOs dont kill you in one hit, but Wrap makes up for it with free switches.
"3- I never was mad at anyone."
Making excuses for why THE Alternative supported the ban on Wrap sure seemed like you were mad at people.
"4- I never said I wanted to change your mind. I realize that I'm a stupid and holier than thou asshole who always thinks I'm right that wants Wrap unbanned because other places have it unbanned. I realize that I wont be able to change your mind."
You wont, unless you came up with a good argument, and you really need to stop with the "lol im right ur wrong" crap, at least have a good argument to back it up.
"5- GameFAQS and Pokemonexperte are only two places. Besides, I remember Peter_Pan using Clamp."
I never said they banned it, I said the people there supported the ban, and Peter Pan didn't seem to mind not using it, and yeah I know he uses Clamp.
"6- It isn't just Smogon that supports Wrap unbanned."
It isn't just THE Alternative that likes Wrap being banned.
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