Wrap : How to use it and how to beat it.

[samthedigital]

Here on THE Alternative using wrap is banned, so I have decided to make a guide to those of you who are having problems with it elsewhere.

Using Trap Moves :

Wrap / Clamp / Etc. is simple to use. You want to use Cloyster or Dragonite to use these moves to their greatest. Dragonite has Agility coupled with Wrap, a great movepool, and his defenses allow him to set up to sweep.

Dragonite's biggest disadvantage is that his speed isn't great. His typing isn't helping him either, but he can still survive against Blizzards and get the lucky sweep. If he does get hit, he needs to get lucky for Wrap to hit all those times and get the eventual sweep. Dragonite also needs support. You need to have a lot of paralyze support so that he has an easier time sweeping. It is harder to sweep for him when he has to use Agility.

Dragonite only has 4 moveslots, and that in itself is a disadvantage. If you use Wrap and Agility then you only have space for 2 slots. If you use Surf and Blizzard, Chansey and Starmie will easily beat you. If you use Hyper Beam and Thunderbolt then Golem will laugh at you, and if you miss one Wrap against Golem you are going to die or at least get hit pretty bad. If you use BoltBlizz then Chansey or Snorlax will likely hit you with something nasty. If you take away Agility you also run the risk of not being set up properly and dieing to Starmie or Alakazam.

While he does have these weaknesses, he bring a 6-1 losing game to a 1-0 win. This is nothing to laugh at. If you set him up properly the game is done, or you will have a HUGE advantage. He does take some luck to use, and Wrap can miss at the worst of times, but Dragonite can take 1 miss in some cases. He is a high risk, high reward Pokemon.

Cloyster, the other useful trapper, is played a bit differently from Dragonite. Cloyster can actualy do some switching in on things and can explode also. Its speed is not good, but it gets Clamp STAB. It does get to outspeed Snorlax and Chansey and Exeggutor, so it is not like the speed is useless. Cloyster is more of a team player. He can defend a team from Tauros and he can kill Starmie if he wants to explode. He also repels Golem really well. He doesn't need as much support to work either.

Cloyster is pretty cool, but it does have some obvious problems. He is countered really bad by Starmie and has to Explode to kill it. It also has a tough time against Chansey. Even if it can beat Tauros, it can't do it forever due to its poor HP. It also has a bad time taking special attacks.

Countering trapping moves :

Starmie is a great way to do it, and so is Gengar. If you don't want to use them, though, the best way is to keep your team fresh. Not getting your whole team paralyzed leaves Dragonite vulnerable. Dragonite can't take hits too well, and can't switch in on any Pokemon exept maybe a Snorlax's Earthquake Cloyster is completely walled by Starmie, and has to resort to exploding on Starmie. It can't switch in to Body Slams from Tauros and Snorlax forever also.

[GGFan]

Best Wrapnite is Agility/Wrap/Hyper Beam/Surf. Surf OHKOs Golem/Rhydon, you wrap and then kill things off like Snorlax and Chansey once they've taken enough damage. Blizzard really only hits Exeggutor, you only use Blizzard when you can kill Exeggutor off, which does a whopping 2 HP more damage than Hyper Beam does.

Also, paralyzed Starmie isn't really a great Wrap counter IMO since you have to avoid letting it get paralyzed meaning you have to switch out and let something else get paralyzed. Once Dragonite uses Agility it'll outspeed everything. Gengar is really the only real counter to Wrap but the Wrap user still gets to switch out Dragonite and not take an attack which is kinda lame.

[samthedigital]

admin said:

Best Wrapnite is Agility/Wrap/Hyper Beam/Surf. Surf OHKOs Golem/Rhydon, you wrap and then kill things off like Snorlax and Chansey once they've taken enough damage. Blizzard really only hits Exeggutor, you only use Blizzard when you can kill Exeggutor off, which does a whopping 2 HP more damage than Hyper Beam does.

Also, paralyzed Starmie isn't really a great Wrap counter IMO since you have to avoid letting it get paralyzed meaning you have to switch out and let something else get paralyzed. Once Dragonite uses Agility it'll outspeed everything. Gengar is really the only real counter to Wrap but the Wrap user still gets to switch out Dragonite and not take an attack which is kinda lame.

Chansey and Starmie will live and kill Dragonite more than likely with that set you mentioned. Just don't get Starmie paralysed... It is the best Cloyster counter ever. Also, Dragonite has to take damage to use Agility, and it does not like that.

[GGFan]

I fail to see how Chansey will live and beat Dragonite with that set, especially since Dragonite can start using wrap from the get-go and not have to use Agility. On average damage Dragonite only hits 8 hits of wrap against Chansey to kill it, that can be anywhere from 2 to 4 uses of Wrap, then it can kill it with Hyper Beam. Chansey only wins if Wrap decides to miss, and Wrap has good enough accuracy that it can certainly be used 4 times without missing.

Starmie is obviously better since it outspeeds Dragonite and has Blizzard, but I dont really see how it would live and beat Dragonite if Dragonite has Agility up. You have to get somewhere between 6 to 10 uses with Wrap before Hyper Beam kills it on average damage, which is obviously better odds but it depends how many times Wrap hits and then you factor in CHs as well.

And I'm not talking about Cloyster counters or whatever, I'm talking about the best set for Wrapnite. And of course Dragonite doesn't like to get hit, but it can shrug off certain hits and if it uses Agility the turn it gets T-Waved, it comes down to Wrap missing and Dragonite getting fpd, which is all luck based.

I dont see any better options for Wrapnite. What set is more likely to kill Chansey then?

[samthedigital]

admin said:

I fail to see how Chansey will live and beat Dragonite with that set, especially since Dragonite can start using wrap from the get-go and not have to use Agility. On average damage Dragonite only hits 8 hits of wrap against Chansey to kill it, that can be anywhere from 4 to 2 uses of Wrap, then it can kill it with Hyper Beam. Chansey only wins if Wrap decides to miss, and Wrap has good enough accuracy that it can certainly be used 4 times without missing.

Starmie is obviously better since it outspeeds Dragonite and has Blizzard, but I dont really see how it would live and beat Dragonite if Dragonite has Agility up. You have to get somewhere between 6 to 10 uses with Wrap before Hyper Beam kills it on average damatge, which is obviously better odds but it depends how many times Wrap hits and then you factor in CHs as well.

And I'm not talking about Cloyster counters or whatever, I'm talking about the best set for Wrapnite. And of course Dragonite doesn't like to get hit, but it can shrug off certain hits and if it uses Agility the turn it gets T-Waved, it comes down to Wrap missing and Dragonite getting fpd, which is all luck based.

I dont see any better options for Wrapnite. What set is more likely to kill Chansey then?

Dragonite can not battle with Chansey well. Since he is usualy the last Pokemon and he is out against Chansey, he will HAVE to use Wrap. That means that you can safely kill Dragonite with your unparalised Starmie or paralyze it with something fast. If he has Agility set up, he is likely to miss once in all probability. Also, as I said, the key to beating Dragonite is to force it to come in last completely unable to do anything major. He is like Tauros in that if you set the game up for him late game, he will probably win. If you don't let your team get paralyzed and have Dragonite forced to switch in against Chansey, Starmie, Alakazam, or anythinge else that can paralyze him without a doubt or ohko him you have the game won. You just let your team be healthy of paralysis and Dragonite dies. Also, Dragonite getting FPd or not is like every other Pokemon, so you probably got luckfucked if it never gets fpd.
Just to end this, Dragonite can set up and all, which will probably win you the game, but many things can be done to stop the setup and make Dragonite a useless slot on the team.

[GGFan]

"Dragonite can not battle with Chansey well. Since he is usualy the last Pokemon and he is out against Chansey, he will HAVE to use Wrap. That means that you can safely kill Dragonite with your unparalised Starmie or paralyze it with something fast. If he has Agility set up, he is likely to miss once in all probability. Also, as I said, the key to beating Dragonite is to force it to come in last completely unable to do anything major. He is like Tauros in that if you set the game up for him late game, he will probably win. If you don't let your team get paralyzed and have Dragonite forced to switch in against Chansey, Starmie, Alakazam, or anythinge else that can paralyze him without a doubt or ohko him you have the game won. You just let your team be healthy of paralysis and Dragonite dies. Also, Dragonite getting FPd or not is like every other Pokemon, so you probably got luckfucked if it never gets fpd."

I've never fought a Wrapnite where it came down to Wrapnite, and Chansey is probably one of Wrapnites easier targets because it doesn't have to use Wrap a lot for it to kill it with Hyper Beam. Saying Dragonite will be the last Pokemon is entirely situational, who says Dragonite can't use Agility on something like Golem or Rhydon, take their attack and then sweep with Wrap? It all comes down to when Wrap decides to miss.

Also, Starmie is good because it originally outspeeds Wrapnite but can't do anything to Wrapnite if it already set up Agility, all it can do is wait until and IF Wrap misses, like every Pokemon in the game barring Gengar. 85% accuracy means you'll probably miss, but it's just as likely you'll hit for many, many, many turns consecutively as well. I've been hit over 20 times in a row with Wrap before. And again, Wrapnite doesn't need to hit Chansey a lot to kill with Wrap, and Hyper Beam cuts the need to use Wrap basically by half.

Also, how can you keep your team healthy against paralysis? You can't stop other T-Wavers from paralyzing you unless you have a bunch of sleeping things or frozen things, the former being illegal and the latter being claused as well. Wrapnite can get fpd too, but it can take a hit from a crapload of things, move on and continue sweeping.

"Just to end this, Dragonite can set up and all, which will probably win you the game, but many things can be done to stop the setup and make Dragonite a useless slot on the team."

That's why the other Pokemon support Wrapnite by paralyzing things, getting a sleep in and whatever, Wrapnite can also be switched in midgame if the opportunity arises, use Agility on the switch and gg.

[samthedigital]

"I've never fought a Wrapnite where it came down to Wrapnite, and Chansey is probably one of Wrapnites easier targets because it doesn't have to use Wrap a lot for it to kill it with Hyper Beam. Saying Dragonite will be the last Pokemon is entirely situational, who says Dragonite can't use Agility on something like Golem or Rhydon, take their attack and then sweep with Wrap? It all comes down to when Wrap decides to miss."
Chansey can always switch out and recover later. Wrap did nothing there. Also, Dragonite has a hard time taking Golem and Rhydon's attacks. It is much easier to have things paralyzed for Dragonite to sweep, or have a vulnerable Pokemon to set up on.

"Also, Starmie is good because it originally outspeeds Wrapnite but can't do anything to Wrapnite if it already set up Agility, all it can do is wait until and IF Wrap misses, like every Pokemon in the game barring Gengar. 85% accuracy means you'll probably miss, but it's just as likely you'll hit for many, many, many turns consecutively as well. I've been hit over 20 times in a row with Wrap before. And again, Wrapnite doesn't need to hit Chansey a lot to kill with Wrap, and Hyper Beam cuts the need to use Wrap basically by half."
Who will let Dragonite Agility? Dragonite needs to switch in on something sleeping, let Golem kill something and send Dragonite in and hope to get lucky if you want to set up, or kill with Surf. Then you send out Starmie or Gengar to make Dragonite cry. You just keep those 2 protected, that isn't so hard.

"Also, how can you keep your team healthy against paralysis? You can't stop other T-Wavers from paralyzing you unless you have a bunch of sleeping things or frozen things, the former being illegal and the latter being claused as well. Wrapnite can get fpd too, but it can take a hit from a crapload of things, move on and continue sweeping."

Chansey is a great Pokemon to absorb paralysis. When Dragonite is paralyzed it will not be able to win the game unless by some miracle or if your last Pokemon is at low health. And that would be because of AgiliHyper Beam, not Agiliwrap.

"That's why the other Pokemon support Wrapnite by paralyzing things, getting a sleep in and whatever, Wrapnite can also be switched in midgame if the opportunity arises, use Agility on the switch and gg."

There are a limit to the amounts of switching in it can do. It can switch in on something sleeping (just don't let anything stay in while sleeping). It can switch in on Golem or Gengar and Surf them or Agility. He can switch in on a Chansey who killed something and acomplish nothing. Same for Snorlax. It is more of a risk for Dragonite also, not for the one who has Chansey/Snorlax out.

[GGFan]

Then we both agree that's one Pokemon that gets paralyzed, and that means Wrapnite kills it even easier since it doesn't have to use Agility and if it did miss, Chansey can get fpd and not capitalize. Then if the opponent sends out something faster, switch Wrapnite out. If it's not faster, it still doesn't even have to use Agility. And if Dragonite has Agility up when it gets paralyzed it still outspeeds nearly everything in the game. So all that can happen is Dragonite getting fpd or missing, which all comes down to luck.

"There are a limit to the amounts of switching in it can do. It can switch in on something sleeping (just don't let anything stay in while sleeping). It can switch in on Golem or Gengar and Surf them or Agility. He can switch in on a Chansey who killed something and acomplish nothing. Same for Snorlax. It is more of a risk for Dragonite also, not for the one who has Chansey/Snorlax out."

It can switch on a sleeping Pokemon if you think they'll switch into something slower than Dragonite or if you think they'll keep the sleeping Pokemon in, if you freeze something, you can switch Wrapnite in if you think the opponent will send out something like Exeggutor. It can switch on a Body Slam from Snorlax if you have no choice to. It can switch into Exeggutors Psychic if you absolutely have to, and does a good job of switching into Chanseys T-Bolt and if you think it will use Softboiled, switch into that.

Also, if something gets killed, it can switch in then as well.

[samthedigital]

"Then we both agree that's one Pokemon that gets paralyzed, and that means Wrapnite kills it even easier since it doesn't have to use Agility and if it did miss, Chansey can get fpd and not capitalize. Then if the opponent sends out something faster, switch Wrapnite out. If it's not faster, it still doesn't even have to use Agility. And if Dragonite has Agility up when it gets paralyzed it still outspeeds nearly everything in the game. So all that can happen is Dragonite getting fpd or missing, which all comes down to luck. "
Wrapnite doesn't easily kill Chansey, the usual thing that sops up paralyzes. FPing is luck, and even without the wrap metagame, if you fp an explosion turn against say Tauros and that is your last thing that can do something to it, that is gg. Also, you can switch out even if you are wraped. Wrap isn't THAT good. We both agree that Dragonite can ONLY Agility on Tauros, where he has a 30-40% chance to sweep including the chances to CH. When Dragonite gets paralyzed, you have to admit that he will get FPd more than enough times for you to kill it. Being faster than something else means shit when you can't trap at all times.


"It can switch on a sleeping Pokemon if you think they'll switch into something slower than Dragonite or if you think they'll keep the sleeping Pokemon in, if you freeze something, you can switch Wrapnite in if you think the opponent will send out something like Exeggutor. It can switch on a Body Slam from Snorlax if you have no choice to. It can switch into Exeggutors Psychic if you absolutely have to, and does a good job of switching into Chanseys T-Bolt and if you think it will use Softboiled, switch into that."

You have to agree that Dragonite can not do very much against things that paralyze him that are slower. Tauros, Golem, and Rhydon are about the only things that he can set up an agility on. Otherwise the wrap causes a switch to a counter (pure counters), or he doesn't get to sweep yet.

[GGFan]

"You have to agree that Dragonite can not do very much against things that paralyze him that are slower. Tauros, Golem, and Rhydon are about the only things that he can set up an agility on. Otherwise the wrap causes a switch to a counter (pure counters), or he doesn't get to sweep yet."

That's why you use Agility the turn you see T-Wave coming. If they attack instead, then the only thing that saves you is a Wrap miss. And I wouldn't really worry about Golem and Rhydon since Dragonite OHKOs both of them, and I would only Agility on them if I had to, otherwise I would just Surf them. Tauros poses a problem because of Blizzard, but if it sets Agility up Tauros' only hope is a Wrap miss.

[samthedigital]

"That's why you use Agility the turn you see T-Wave coming. If they attack instead, then the only thing that saves you is a Wrap miss. And I wouldn't really worry about Golem and Rhydon since Dragonite OHKOs both of them, and I would only Agility on them if I had to, otherwise I would just Surf them. Tauros poses a problem because of Blizzard, but if it sets Agility up Tauros' only hope is a Wrap miss."

Why would you Agility when Thunder Wave is coming? That makes wrap hit less than the average 3.5 times per attack, and then you can't attack 25% of the time. This matters when you need to do some cleaning. If there are only like 2 things left that are paralyzed and weak, then Wrap did as much as Tauros would do but slower. Who is worrying about Golem and Rhydon? Dragonite gets a free set up on them since they don't OHKO him. Also, against Chansey, Exeggutor, things that are paralyzed that can paralyze Dragonite, etc... Dragonite has to Wrap against them or hope for a FP when he Agilities when battling something paralyzed. He has a 25% chance to do that. Then if your opponent has 5 healthy Pokemon Wrap will likely miss at least one time, which won't be good for Dragonite. 25% is also roughly that of Tauros's chance to CH something. If your game rides on CHing Alakazam and you get it, it is about the same as the chance as Dragonite getting the Agility off against something paralyzed, and your game was revolving around that since they had Starmie or something.

[GGFan]

"Why would you Agility when Thunder Wave is coming? That makes wrap hit less than the average 3.5 times per attack, and then you can't attack 25% of the time. This matters when you need to do some cleaning. If there are only like 2 things left that are paralyzed and weak, then Wrap did as much as Tauros would do but slower. Who is worrying about Golem and Rhydon? Dragonite gets a free set up on them since they don't OHKO him. Also, against Chansey, Exeggutor, things that are paralyzed that can paralyze Dragonite, etc... Dragonite has to Wrap against them or hope for a FP when he Agilities when battling something paralyzed. He has a 25% chance to do that. Then if your opponent has 5 healthy Pokemon Wrap will likely miss at least one time, which won't be good for Dragonite. 25% is also roughly that of Tauros's chance to CH something. If your game rides on CHing Alakazam and you get it, it is about the same as the chance as Dragonite getting the Agility off against something paralyzed, and your game was revolving around that since they had Starmie or something."

Why wouldn't I? If it depended on it, I would, as it still comes down to luck. If Wrap hits and Dragonite gets fpd during the Wrap, the opponent doesn't get to attack. The fp only works if it happens before you can Wrap. Who said anyone is worrying about Golem and Rhydon, why did you even mention them? It's one of Wrapnites easiest targets along with Chansey. Dragonite Wraps against Chansey but can kill it with Hyper Beam after using it just twice if it hits enough or gets a couple of CHs. So your telling me if you had to Agility but take a T-Wave, you'd attack instead?

And again, if Wrap misses, Dragonite can take a good number of attacks, and even if it gets hit hard there's hardly anything that can OHKO it. And Wrapnite doesn't have to stay in the whole game either, you can switch it out after killing 1 or 2 Pokemon if you're afraid of missing against something like Lapras or Jynx. It'a also likely Wrap can hit for many turns consecutively. Any place that allows Wrap should allow OHKOs.

[samthedigital]

"Why wouldn't I? If it depended on it, I would, as it still comes down to luck. If Wrap hits and Dragonite gets fpd during the Wrap, the opponent doesn't get to attack. The fp only works if it happens before you can Wrap. Who said anyone is worrying about Golem and Rhydon, why did you even mention them? It's one of Wrapnites easiest targets along with Chansey. Dragonite Wraps against Chansey but can kill it with Hyper Beam after using it just twice if it hits enough or gets a couple of CHs. So your telling me if you had to Agility but take a T-Wave, you'd attack instead?"

You really think that you can have such good luck that you do not ever get fpd? Wrap doesn't do tons of damage, it builds up. You have to hit 6 or so times to some Pokemon, and now you can get FPd in the middle of things so it can take more time. Besides, if it relies on luck... So does Tauros beating Reflect Alakazam. Chansey would switch after it gets hit by Wrap one time. You keep it in to make sure that he doesn't Agility. Chansey doesn't care anyway... It can recover later, and other things like Starmie will take Dragonite's Wrap. You would keep your Chansey in long enough to die?
Also, against something slower... If you twave after an agility the speed bonus is deducted, the only time you get the glitch to activate is after getting paralyzed. Dragonite is taking one hit there for sure.

"And again, if Wrap misses, Dragonite can take a good number of attacks, and even if it gets hit hard there's hardly anything that can OHKO it. And Wrapnite doesn't have to stay in the whole game either, you can switch it out after killing 1 or 2 Pokemon if you're afraid of missing against something like Lapras or Jynx. It'a also likely Wrap can hit for many turns consecutively. Any place that allows Wrap should allow OHKOs."

Dragonite is getting 3hkod by enough things, and it is scared of Starmie. If you don't let it set up then you won't have much of a problem. Wrap can hit a lot, but won't against something faster. Also, Wrap can be countered, getting OHKOd by OHKO moves... That isn't preventable. If it hits your Pokemon is dead period. That is hardly the case with Wrap.

[GGFan]

"You really think that you can have such good luck that you do not ever get fpd? Wrap doesn't do tons of damage, it builds up. You have to hit 6 or so times to some Pokemon, and now you can get FPd in the middle of things so it can take more time. Besides, if it relies on luck... So does Tauros beating Reflect Alakazam. Chansey would switch after it gets hit by Wrap one time. You keep it in to make sure that he doesn't Agility. Chansey doesn't care anyway... It can recover later, and other things like Starmie will take Dragonite's Wrap. You would keep your Chansey in long enough to die?"

When did somebody say Wrap does ton of damage? And I only have to worry about getting fpd if I get paralyzed first. Even then, the fp only matters if I dont hit with Wrap, if you get fpd during it, it doesn't matter. Yes, it requires luck, but with Agility all Dragonite really has to worry about is Wrap missing and getting fpd the turn it would Wrap. It's pretty much the same as OHKOs, which are actually easier to counter yet not allowed where Wrap is allowed.

And fine, Chansey switches, what are you going to switch to? Dragonite Wraps the incoming Pokemon and you get a free switch, and you might not be able to switch out depending on certain scenarios. You can only switch into something that outspeeds Dragonite, and only Gengar is a real counter (Though you still get a free switch anyway). If you switch into something slower, you're just depending on a Wrap miss which comes down to luck and Wrap doesn't exactly have the worst accuracy in the world. I dont care if they switch, it's still an advantage for me unless Wrap misses and you should never use Agility against Chansey unless you have to.

"Also, against something slower... If you twave after an agility the speed bonus is deducted, the only time you get the glitch to activate is after getting paralyzed. Dragonite is taking one hit there for sure"

Most T-Wavers outspeed Dragonite, the ones that dont get hit by Wrap, I'm not going to use Agility on things that are slower, I Wrap the shit out of them. And Dragonite can take hits, and big hits as well barring CHs and STAB ice attacks.

"Dragonite is getting 3hkod by enough things, and it is scared of Starmie. If you don't let it set up then you won't have much of a problem. Wrap can hit a lot, but won't against something faster. Also, Wrap can be countered, getting OHKOd by OHKO moves... That isn't preventable. If it hits your Pokemon is dead period. That is hardly the case with Wrap."

Just to end this, it sure as hell isn't scared of Surf Starmie, especially if Starmie is paralyzed. It can take Body Slams, Exeggutor Psychics and other things. Only ice attacks really phaze it, unless it's getting hit by Alakazam Psychics, Zapdos T-Boltls, and such. And 3hko isn't really a big deal, Snorlax 3HKOs it only with Body Slam+Body Slam+Hyper Beam, and since we can factor in Wrap missing, we can factor in a Hyper Beam. And to be honest, if Snorlax decided to Selfdestruct instead, that's fine by me, Dragonite survives Selfdestruct at full health too. And when you have 5 Pokemon helping Dragonite set up and then factor in RBY itself, you really can't stop a good player for setting something up always. You can apply the same to OHKOs, which are actually easier to counter but I dont see you making a petition for unbanning them.

[samthedigital]

"When did somebody say Wrap does ton of damage? And I only have to worry about getting fpd if I get paralyzed first. Even then, the fp only matters if I dont hit with Wrap, if you get fpd during it, it doesn't matter. Yes, it requires luck, but with Agility all Dragonite really has to worry about is Wrap missing and getting fpd the turn it would Wrap. It's pretty much the same as OHKOs, which are actually easier to counter yet not allowed where Wrap is allowed."

"Dragonite Wraps against Chansey but can kill it with Hyper Beam after using it just twice if it hits enough or gets a couple of CHs."

Dragonite can't Wrap Chansey twice and expect to go for an HB after. Chansey is only staying in to Thunder Wave. Also, OHKOs are harder to counter. Ask Dugtrio. Zapdos walls him, but does nothing to the Golem / Rhydon on the switchin. Same for Articuno save you use Chansey for that.

"Most T-Wavers outspeed Dragonite, the ones that dont get hit by Wrap, I'm not going to use Agility on things that are slower, I Wrap the shit out of them. And Dragonite can take hits, and big hits as well barring CHs and STAB ice attacks."

You aren't going to have the chance to hit things that are slower than Dragonite for long. Also, Starmie can OHKO Dragonite without STAB, so he isn't as strong as is made out to be. Besides, who cares how fast you are when you are paralyzed? You are sometimes facing 3 Pokemon. You are bound to be fpd sometime. Dragonite only needs to get fpd 1 time against Starmie... That doesn't take long at all. Gengar also LOLs at Dragonite. Chansey can take some wraps and hit hard. Tauros hits hard, and Snorlax hits hard... Shouldn't be too hard to kill paralyzed Dragonite.

"And fine, Chansey switches, what are you going to switch to? Dragonite Wraps the incoming Pokemon and you get a free switch, and you might not be able to switch out depending on certain scenarios. You can only switch into something that outspeeds Dragonite, and only Gengar is a real counter (Though you still get a free switch anyway). If you switch into something slower, you're just depending on a Wrap miss which comes down to luck and Wrap doesn't exactly have the worst accuracy in the world. I dont care if they switch, it's still an advantage for me unless Wrap misses and you should never use Agility against Chansey unless you have to."

Tell Starmie that Gengar is the only counter for Dragonite. If Dragonite wants to switch, predict it. That isn't hard when Wrap could have missed and when you can switch also. I am not depending on a Wrap miss with something slower, I can always switch and wait. Seriously, Wrap isn't going to do much to the common switch in. Wrap has 85 accuracy, so it will eventually miss if you don't get bored and let yourself die or something...

"Just to end this, it sure as hell isn't scared of Surf Starmie, especially if Starmie is paralyzed. It can take Body Slams, Exeggutor Psychics and other things. Only ice attacks really phaze it, unless it's getting hit by Alakazam Psychics, Zapdos T-Boltls, and such. And 3hko isn't really a big deal, Snorlax 3HKOs it only with Body Slam+Body Slam+Hyper Beam, and since we can factor in Wrap missing, we can factor in a Hyper Beam. And to be honest, if Snorlax decided to Selfdestruct instead, that's fine by me, Dragonite survives Selfdestruct at full health too. And when you have 5 Pokemon helping Dragonite set up and then factor in RBY itself, you really can't stop a good player for setting something up always. You can apply the same to OHKOs, which are actually easier to counter but I dont see you making a petition for unbanning them."

Just run Blizzard Starmie if you want to beat Dragoinite. Also, just don't let Starmie get paralyzed. That is easy to do. Just switch to Chansey to sop up the paralysis. Also, why would I Selfdestruct with Snorlax right away? I can stop the setup, and have done it before. It isn't as hard as you believe it to be. What do you mean by factoring RBY itself? Tauros is used on almost every team anyway, so what would hurt the game if Dragonite saw some (less for sure) play? You can't stop Tauros from beating the team when a good player sets him up right. Nor can you stop a newb from CHing your Alakazam that has Reflect up. OHKOs are ONLY countered by luck and by switching to a flier, and to be honest, the only good ones are a gamble to use because of Golem and Chansey seeing so much use. This is with Duggy... With Par support, lots of luck, and Tauros... There really isn't anything you can do about it. I am not trying to unban Wrap, by the way. I won't go for a lost cause because obviously people here hate Wrap because they can't beat it. That and arguing with people online goes nowhere... No one's mind is ever really changed.