Some posts I felt like responding to

[GGFan]

So today I'm browsing the Diamond board and I stumbled upon a topic that had some posts that I wanted to address, but the topic creator decided to close the topic before I could make my response. A few more posts were made when the topic was closed as well, more posts that I felt like responding to.

Topic: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=925601&topic=45885855

by going back to RBY days version of EV spreads, then every stat on every poke would be maxed and therefore no diversity within the stats would be found. By limiting the amount of stats you can max and the total amount of EVs you can invest, diverse spreads can be found. It's like being restricted to four moves per set because if you could have as many as you wanted, some guys would be broken

Saying EVs gives diversity in stats is kind of a minute argument as everybody uses the same spreads anyway. Sure, you could come up with a spread that isn't as good, but it's the same as me using an alternative moveset that isn't as effective. Most EV spreads are either sweeper oriented are tank oriented.

What you're suggesting is that pokemon should be a morons game that has no depth in competitive play and boring, indiverse teams.

EVs didn't make the game diverse, they made sweepers better at attacking and tanks better at taking damage.

Since when were you qualified to have an opinion on this metagame anyway? At least play it before you start blasting it.

He's just as qualified as you are, and you aren't anymore qualified than he is.

I didn't deny that you had an opinion. I'm just saying that it's meaningless and invalid.

Yours isn't any better.

tl; dr.

Those were like, three short little sentences with spaces in between. Do you have the attention span of a two year old?

[GGFan]

being able to max less stats allows you customize your pokemon rather than maxing everything so everyone would have exactly the same spread. The use of fragile sweepers allow strategy to be truly applied durring battle and the low power of tanks stop the metagame from being overrun by invincible monsters without needing a brain to figure out what to do next.

This "customization" is usually just powering up the Pokemon's best stats. That isn't customization, it's just utilizing the best stats. There are multiple moveset options usually because of the Pokemon's MOVEPOOL, not because of EVs. As for Pokemon who get spreads in stats like attack and special attack, they have that in previous gens too because the stats were generally more balanced to begin with.

Why waste time reading a post when I know going in the argument fails anyway?

Because you haven't proved it, you're just saying it.

[GGFan]

The thing is, in the RBY days (and maybe GSC, it's the generation I payed the least attention to), there was zero variety among Pokemon of the same species. If you saw a Starmie, you knew immediately what its stats were: what could outrun it, what could take a hit from it, what could KO it, and what couldn't. It also meant that even frail sweepers could take a hit without just keeling over and <eloquent word for "non-offensive> tanks could do decent damage, since all stats were maxed.

If I saw a Starmie in RSE I knew what it's stats were and what it's moveset would be, the only thing I wouldn't know is if it was modest or timid (I would suspect timid). You act as if EVs allowed Pokemon to fufill any kind of role. They allowed Pokemon to achieve max potential with their best statistics and in some cases fufill a role with an average stat (Tyranitar's special attack in RSE). And I would know what would kill a Starmie and what wouldn't because it's so frail to begin with thanks to EVs.

What do you mean by "frail sweepers can take a hit?". In RBY your main sweepers are Tauros and Snorlax who can take more than two hits. In RSE and beyond, most sweepers have terrible defenses and rely on an increased speed stat or for the slow sweepers, increased HP to try and survive. In RBY and GSC the OU Pokemon for the most part are all very sturdy. In RSE I've won games solely based on the fact that I had a certain sweeper at the right time, that I pulled out at what happened to be the right time. And in D/P I've won with Garchomp sweeps, a Pokemon that's considered being moved to uber level. Talk about an unbalanced metagame.

Compare to RSE/DPP, where you can't have it all: you're forced to carefully choose your Pokemon's role. If you want to defend really well, it comes at the cost of reduced power. Focusing on attack often results in lower defense due to lack of EV/Nature investment. Also, the EV/Nature system allows you to pull the element of surprise on your opponent by using an oddly bulky sweeper or powerful tank, whereas if all EVs were maxed, there would be zero room for innovation and experimentation. For instance, consider Porygon-Z. Blissey can destroy its substitutes with Ice Beam normally. But if you give it some Special Defense (128 EVs worth, iirc), its subs will ALWAYS survive the attack and allow it to Nasty Plot in the face of the most famous special wall in the game. If EVs were always maxed, then no Blissey in the world would ever try to break a Porygon-Z sub with anything other than Seismic Toss because they would know this fact already, thus ruining the efficacy of the SubSalac Porygon-Z set.

So what are you saying? That in the previous two gens, Pokemon could do anything? Now I'm really getting the vibe that you've barely if at all, played competitive Pokemon. If you're allocating EVs in defense to a Pokemon, it better be on a Pokemon who has good defense to begin with. Giving an Infernape 252 defense EVs and 252 HP is just a recipe for disaster, it's not a surprise, though your opponent might be surprised at how you stupid you are.

Again, variation comes with movepool, not EVs. The EVs just give Pokemon a boost in stats. There are few, if any cases where they're responsible for creating a new kind of moveset on their own. You can say mixed attackers but again, those already existed in RBY and GSC.

You say that the metagame is focused on fragile sweepers and low power tanks. First off, Heatran would like a word with you on the first point, as its defenses are good enough to let it pull off a tank role (though this is rarely seen thanks to Naive ScarfTran handily trouncing Shaymin-S, that's another topic). Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, and Tyranitar are all offensive monsters and none of them are defensive slouches, either. And could you imagine what would happen if tanks could max their attack without compromising staying power? Gliscor can pull off a sweep if it goes for an offensive EV spread, but it loses its massive defense in the process. Now imagine a Gliscor that not only takes physical hits like a champ, but can also sweep your team if you give it half a chance. (Hyperbole, admittedly, but you get the point.)

It pretty much is because EVs give a giant boost. All of the sweepers are for the most part, incredibly frail and the tanks can't do much attack-wise to begin with. Alternative movesets are also pretty much in the minority and generally aren't as good. Tank Heatran for instance, is one of those. Having a Pokemon fufill a role it isn't as good at doing is the same as giving a Pokemon an inferior move over another. It's only really good for countering one or two things.

Tyranitar was bulky in GSC too, it's one of the best cursers in the game. Gyarados in RBY can take hits from anything not electric, it can even survive Selfdestruct from Snorlax. Salamence was a terrible bulky Pokemon in RSE and vastly inferior to it's attacking variants. And yeah, your point about Gliscor was a blatant contradiction.

It all comes back to my first point, which is that the whole point of the EV system (from my point of view, anyway), is to force you to put more thought into building your team and considering what's worth KOing, what's worth surviving, what's worth outspeeding, and what's not. That, and I'd like to reiterate my point about surprising EV spreads. Almost no one expects Pokemon to do anything outside of their normal roles, discounting the flat-out unviable sets, and extra power here or extra staying power there or extra speed somewhere in the middle can get you surprise KOs, survive otherwise-fatal hits, or outrun something that's normally a threat.

And once again, EVs are meant for Pokemon to utilize their best stats. They allow for novelty and specific counter sets, but it's the same as giving a Pokemon a different move in RBY and GSC. Thunderbolt on Tauros is inferior compared to the rest of it's standard moves but it hits Gyarados and Cloyster for more damage. Hyper Beam on Starmie is inferior to it's other options but it can kill Chansey with a CH, who otherwise completely walls it.

The EV era hasn't made Pokemon anymore predictable, it's just meant that in addition to standard movesets, there are now standard EV allocations in addition to standard items and natures as well.

[GGFan]

Yosouf, I'm sorry if I confused you with that last rant. What I'm trying to say is that though EV's did exist in RBY days, one could max every stat on every pokemon back then. By limiting us to a set amount of EV's per pokemon, we must build strategies around where we put this limited amout of EV's. By having different spread, we individualize our pokemon from others and therefore aren't just using the same thing as everyone else, adding another dimension of strategy to the metagame. If all we had were a bunch of overpowered, overdefensive pokemon with everything stat capped off, there would be less to think about when encountering a certain poke. A certain move from a certain pokemon would always do the same amount to each pokemon (is that clear enough??) wereas with limited caps to stats, certain things will survive something from one species that it might not from another of the same species.

Stats could be maxed, but in EVs Pokemon could get higher stats than in RBY and GSC. A modest natured Manectric with 252 special attack EVs has more special than Alakazam. A modest natured Alakazam with 252 special attack EVs has just 1 point less of special attack than Mewtwo. And just because stats were maxed didn't mean they were all automatically good. Jynx has shit for HP and defense, Kangaskhan can't use special attacks for it's life. EVs allow you to neglect Pokemon's worst stats in favor for their best ones.

for those who are too lazy to read all that, pretty much Limited EVs=diverse, Unlimited EVs=boring and indiverse[/i]

EVs =/= movepool and they weren't anymore diverse.